IS THE FALUN GONG GOING WRONG?

http://www.falundafa.org

*Warning: this article links to others that may have graphic content. Discretion advised.*

I think it was a featured post in the WordPress.com website that took me there. The blog was fascinating and morbid. It was an eye opener to read the exhaustive and graphic details of the myriad ways the Chinese officialdom tortures, rapes and murders the members of the Falun Gong sect.

While none of this is fresh, hot news, going into these sites for the last couple of days helped me form some impressions.
These people are committed. No question about this. It is awe-inspiring to see how painstakingly they have documented the list of crimes by the government, as well as the names of the practitioners who have succumbed to the State’s malevolence.

However, one article surprised me. It was a ghastly story of a woman who was tortured with electrical batons held to her breast, and the pictures were supposedly of an electrocuted breast with infection. Naturally, the surgeon in me had an understandable curiosity to see this, and I clicked on the links. I was taken aback to see pictures of a woman with advanced breast cancer.
Many other pictures were on display, quite horrifying for all but the hardened and the trained. However, some of the pictures did not really gel with the textual explanations of the injuries.
In the case of Ms. Gao Rongrong, who was allegedly tortured with an electric baton held inside her mouth for hours, the pictures seem to be surprisingly benign. Medically, a trauma of that severity would have led to tongue swelling to the point of causing obstruction in breathing, and a phenomenal facial swelling would also be seen. Electrical burns also cause scars, the kind of which are lacking in the pictures.
I asked Ken Mattox, a senior American surgeon and an editor of a major international surgical textbook, to opine on these images.
Mattox says, “Photographs can be deceiving. While some of the apparent injuries and conditions might have been caused by torture, it appears that some of the photographs are from conditions which are sometimes seen in a hospital. The photographs could have been from rigor mortis in a dead body, advanced cirrhosis of the liver, portal hypertension, advanced necrotic breast cancer, donor site for a skin graft, routine acute electrical and thermal burns, and sacral decubitus ulcer.”

http://fdkansas.net

The picture of breast electrocution is, quite clearly, a misrepresentation. It fooled none of the group of surgeons I asked to inspect.
I found other Falun Gong sites that also alleged similar torture-induced diseases. Here are two samples:

*Her nose was injured as a result of the brutal force-feeding, turned into an abscess, and became cancerous in 2003. She died on July 12, 2007 at the age of 42.

*She developed cancer after being subjected to severe physical abuse.

Medically speaking, this falls close to the category of myth or rubbish. I wrote to the organisation seeking clarifications on the specific points, but have not yet received a reply.

In view of the long term struggle that the Falun Gong movement is undertaking, and the fact that the struggle is clearly a just and moral one (the struggle to be free, to speak freely and practise one’s beliefs freely), I wish the movement takes note of the fact that it is difficult to regain credibility once lost. The need to be graphic to expose the horrible and inhuman animals who perpetrate these tortures on the Falun Gong is understandable.
However, the truth is great, and shall prevail.
Hence, the Falun Gong should clearly identify the mistakes and the fakes and remove them. They owe this to their own struggle, their own people.

Recommended reading:
1. Bloody Harvest, a treatise on forced organ transplantation.
2. Harry Wu’s take on the Falun media.

42 responses to “IS THE FALUN GONG GOING WRONG?

  1. Good heavans, reading it like this is certainly disturbing!
    I wonder what is happening behind the scenes in India!

    Nita,
    Could you amplify that? What is the Indian context??

  2. Oh my, what a gory sight.

    But once you get over the shock and start thinking through, what should you believe? What with all the digital advances available today that can doctor photos and sometime outright manufacture photos, what are we to believe?

    Sankar,
    Welcome!

  3. Going, going, Gong?

    Mouse,
    Wong, wong, I mean wrong!
    :-)

  4. From the links in your post, I could not ascertain how the Falun Gong is a movement and a struggle.

    From your links as well as Wikipedia, the Falun Gong by definition seems to be primarily a meditation practice, with spiritual overtones attached.

    If their members are also trying to practice freedom of expression and free speech, they’re obviously doing so with a wrong foundation. Such an effort can never succeed.

    I do not think you’ll get a response to your questions. The medical misrepresentations that amount to myth and rubbish are pathetic attempts by this sect, which doesn’t seem to be guided by any scientific knowledge.

    Nevertheless, I salute your post for highlighting this torture that the Chinese government is perpetrating on these innocent folks. It is appalling!

    Mahendra,
    These people are fighting persecution and a planned attempt at exterminating them. I wouldn’t be too harsh on them, except that they seem to have made mistakes. But the larger picture of China’s barbarity is one that is larger than life… and death.

  5. wow. fascinating stuff, if a little difficult to take.

  6. Hey Rambodoc, your post is featured on the WordPress homepage! :) The post is interesting, though I haven’t clicked your links cuz you say they’re not necessarily worksafe (and I’m at work).

    I agree with your overall point: you hinder the pursuit of your own goals by compromising on truth and honesty.

    Ergo,
    Thanks for noticing!
    Happens every day (shrugs immodestly, throws head back like a middle aged cross-dressed Dagny Taggart)! :-D

  7. actually I was thinking of the paridhi tribe…and the general persecution and torture by the police. sorry, should have mentioned what was on my mind..
    I guess its not exactly the same thing…just that I was reminded of it when I read your post.
    its a so-called ‘criminal’ tribe. there was some horrible stories of their persecution sometime back.
    i sort of thought you could read my mind…! :)

    Hmmn.
    (as clear as Sprite over rum)

  8. Doesnt come as a surprise to me when China’s involved. But I loved this sentence //I wish the movement takes note of the fact that it is difficult to regain credibility once lost//. very very true… a movement based on truth and justice should imbibe the same values and substance to be morally and ethically justifiable. From a human point of view, I hope this madness ends before this sect does.

  9. It is disturbing. I don’t want to believe it actually happens.

  10. I didn’t look at the pictures. My excuse is I am at work – but I am not being totally honest.

    I certainly agree with your point – although I realize how difficult it can to do that in extremely trying, horrific situations when scales are heavily tipped against you. Sometimes, someone on your side is going to be tempted to deviate just to gain an advantage or hit back.

    I am not saying this as an excuse/justification – simply pointing out that it can be very difficult to not budge an inch.

  11. I appreciate you highlighting the misrepresentation of the injuries in these images – images are surely a very influential tool in drawing people’s attention, so it’s good to know to be careful with who (or what internet site) someone would get information from. I also agree it would be smart for supporters of Falun Gong members to stop misusing image lest they want to risk credibility.

  12. The thing is, this is hardly a case of just one person being “tempted to deviate.” I’m pretty sure I’ve seen at least some of the pictures mentioned, as they are used time and again in countless FLG materials.

    FLG-related websites (dajiyuan.com, epochtimes.com, clearwisdom.net and many others I can’t remember) will do anything to make China look bad, no matter how laughable their sources are. When reprinting an article that is also critical of the FLG, they will usually remove that portion. I’m sure that with the amount of… poo-poo they throw at the wall, some portion of it sticks- after all, Epoch Times offices or personnel have been attacked in Hong Kong and the United States, so they must have touched a nerve- but their methods are a joke.

    I’m not somebody who needs a lot of convincing about bad goings-on in China- I’m living here right now, after all, and can only read and post this with the aid of a proxy utility- but I don’t give FLG assertions that aren’t backed by credible third parties much more credence than claims by the Chinese government.

  13. ah ha the failing gong

    just when I were considering a switch to wordpress I read this

    http://www.windley.com/archives/2007/09/wordpress_blows_up_blogs.shtml

  14. Thank you, all you guys, for your comments.
    I appreciate all of them!

  15. rambodoc, all these websites are somehow either paid for, or “voluntarily” operated at the behest and direction of, the Falun Gong leadership.

    The goal is to creat an “Echo Chamber” for their anti-Chinese propaganda. Those of us in the community see right thru it. I as an Asian-American community activist have been witnessing this for a long time.

    Here’s a clue, just Google whatever names that comes up with other keywords like “Falun Dafa”, or “Epoch Times”.

  16. While I do not agree with the Chinese government’s crack-down on Falun Gong, many of us in the West are not aware of Falun Gong’s controversial history in China.

    What you noticed here is tame compare to what they had done in China:

    http://exposingthefalungong.org/fgban01.html

    Above blog is research from a San Fracisco man who’s parents nearly died from refusing medical treatment after being brainwashed by Falun Gong.

  17. (Sorry not trying to flood your blog)

    Falun Gong’s vivisection allegation has been discredited by US State Dept.’s undercover investigation as well:

    http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html

    BTW, David Kilgour’s “Bloody Harvest” report was paid for by Falun Gong’s political arm CIPFG (in terms of “reimbursement”.) See appendix K of the report.

  18. Hello-

    I came across this blog entry while researching on the internet. I would like to share some thoughts with you.

    The criticism of this photo is noted, and I will forward this info to The Epoch Times editors. Often, these articles are translated from the Chinese Dajiyuan (Epoch Times) edition, as well as the photos supplied with the article(s). Epoch Times reporters in China do so at risk to their well-being (and even their lives). Sometimes the results lack a level of professionalism experienced with other media, and mistakes are made.

    But at no point is there an intent to deceive the public. The stories and events surrounding the Chinese Communist Party (CCP)’s persecution of Falun Gong are horrific, and what has been exposed is a small portion of what is taking place in China. I have first hand knowledge of this, as I have been involved with the English-language Epoch Times from the beginning.

    Speaking of this, it is a mistake to call The Epoch Times a Falun Gong newspaper. Yes, we cover this issue extensively. Yes, there are Falun Gong practitioners working with The Epoch Times (and with the principles of Truth, Compassion, and Forbearance they strive to embody, their character and work ethic, they are considered an asset). But we are a quality newspaper, improving all the time, covering a broad range of topics. We are not a Falun Gong newspaper.

    The persecution of Falun Gong in China is an extremely important global issue, as we recognize China’s growing influence in the world, and the role its leadership will play.

    There were tens-of-millions of people openly practicing Falun Gong in China, before the CCP (led by Jiang Zemin) began persecuting the practice. You have to really think about this, as with so many people practicing, didn’t they have friends, relatives, etc. that were exposed and connected to practitioners as well? Isn’t this a huge portion of Chinese citizens – and families – affected by this persecution?

    This practice was openly welcomed in China, and as it grew the communist leadership grew paranoid of its numbers (almost double the CCP membership in 1999) and turned on it overnight. And since then, the CCP has done the worst, most unspeakable acts to a large section of its OWN people, and continues to do so as we approach the Beijing 2008 Olympics.

    Notice, please, that I refer specifically to the Chinese Communist Party, not China’s citizenry, in my comments. This is a clear distinction we make in The Epoch Times, as we recognize that mainland Chinese and those overseas have also become victim to the massive propaganda machine of CCP state-run media. This includes the powerful effects of the self-immolation footage broadcast everywhere in 2001, which an investigation outside of China (conducted by Falun Gong practitioners and independent investigators) revealed powerful evidence of this being a fabrication by the communist regime. But, you will come to your own conclusions about this persuasive event:

    http://www.falsefire.com/

    To summarize, the story of the persecution of Falun Gong is one of a very large group of people, growing up under a brutal communist dictatorship that destroyed traditional Chinese culture and thought, who connect with a spiritual discipline that asks them to cultivate their very nature and character. To uphold its principles of Truth (Zhen), Compassion (Shan) and Forbearance (Ren) under all circumstances (which they have – they have never reacted violently, even when they are being killed).

    Are they an irrational sect, blind cult, or political movement? Where did this description of Falun Gong originate?

    They – correction, “We” – are none of the above. You see, I, too, am a Falun Gong practitioner; I am not Chinese, but an American in his 40s who grew up Christian, who has practiced Falun Gong for five years now. It is inside of my heart, and I cherish it. Discussing the persecutuion for me is even simpler, as it is about the communist regime of China using immense finacial resources and influence, to murder and destroy people that I am concerned about, and feel a connection to. People I have met and know. Good people.

    I am not deluded by blind acceptance, but am a rational, discriminate, and discerning human being. But, of course, that is for you to decide by reading these words.

    Unfortunately, I have to finish unsigned, due to the constant attacks from the CCP. They are behind attacks on our email systems, web servers; physical attacks on our personnel and destruction of our offices and equipment. I ask the webhost to please keep my IP address and email confidential.

    Again, it is simple to me: if the truth is on your side, what do you fear? Why do you have to silence us?

    The blog mentioned concerning the deaths of 1,404 practitioners from 1992 to 1999 is a propaganda story we’ve had to deal with since the beginning of the persecution, and is echoed in this blog. I do not necessarily fault the blogger; I’m just telling you what I know. Examine the False Fire information above, and use this as a context for reflecting on any information supplied by the CCP.

    But let’s say it was true. In any group that contains 100 million people, you will have people of various mental states, understandings, rationality, etc. They may take things to extreme, and cause harm to oneself or others. This is bound to happen in such large numbers.

    Lastly, the “Bloody Harvest” report mentioned in the comments is shocking. The COIPFG-led investigation is not FG propaganda, but exposing the CCP’s campaign of killing Falun Gong practitioners, when organs are needed, for their lucrative international organ transplant business. When I read the report, and begin to understand the implications, I just cannot find the words.

    But, again, you be the judge: http://organharvestinvestigation.net/

    Thank you for the opportunity to comment. Please learn more of the persecution of Falun Gong.

  19. Rambodoc, please send your list of misrepresented medical photos to Epoch Times editor, so they may study them and issue retractions – like real media organizations do:

    chris.jasurek (at) epochtimes.com
    stephen.gregory (at) epochtimes.com
    thai.ton (at) epochtimes.com

    Here’s the one I sent last year, and never hear back from:

    - In David Kilgour’s Falun Gong report, Appendix 20 Case 1, an autopsy photo of Mr. Wang Bin had been misreprested as evidence of vivisection and organ harvesting.

    - The photo was reviewed by Dr. Friedlander of Kansas City University School of Medicine, Pathology Dept.

    - The photo exhibited ‘Y’ incisions in the neck and baseball stitch sutures, which are typical of autopsy. The fact organ removal by medical examiner during autopsy is routine, is omitted.

  20. You said: “These people are fighting persecution and a planned attempt at exterminating them. I wouldn’t be too harsh on them, except that they seem to have made mistakes. But the larger picture of China’s barbarity is one that is larger than life… and death.”

    well this is just so true.
    Also please consider that is not easy to get out evidence from mainland China, which sometimes condemns people for 10 years of prison for sending an email. See: http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGASA170022006

    So you could perhaps lend an assistance to this group of people who are clearly not medical doctors and whom you could help them firm up the evidence they painstakingly collect.

    Kuki,
    Thanks for your comment. I understand the issues in this very controversial subject. As I have made clear in the post, I am against the tyranny of the Chinese Government.

  21. Glad you’re stilling check this, rambodoc. I see you are clearly interested in doing right and getting to the bottom of things–that is the most important thing. I’ll copy you a newspaper article at the end of this about the poster ‘bobby fletcher’, also known as ‘Charles Liu’. He has been posting this blog, where you raise doubts about the veracity of the photos purported to depict the persecution, all over the internet. This is part of his wider campaign to discredit Falun Gong.

    I will copy here what a physician says, (he is a Falun Dafa practitioner). Actually, I sent to one doctor, and he forwarded to another:

    Dear D,

    I have seen a few cases of advanced breast cancer, but do not have
    experience with what electrical burns look like.

    Any comment?

    All the Best,

    F

    —–

    Hey F

    I think in Medicine its not always very easy to diagnose things by a picture
    alone and that is why a good physician takes a very thorough history. However,
    I find nothing out of place in the pictures shown on our websites. The only
    thing I would agree is that the woman who had been tortured with an electric
    stick looks like they attacked the outside of her face more than the inside of
    her face. But we don’t have any pictures with her mouth open so its very hard
    to tell. Plus when someone is tortured its probably very hard for them to
    remember exactly what took place so I don’t think its a big deal where they
    shocked her.

    This sounds to me like someone is just stirring up trouble.

    D

    —————

    Personally I do not think you are trying to stir up trouble. But I would like to share my thoughts on the issue. It is a terribly serious thing that is happening in China. If I were in any position of authority (such as you, as a doctor), in the context of this insane, truly wicked persecution, I would be extremely careful about saying that Falun Gong practitioners are fabricating evidence, and are providing photos which have been faked, etc.. This is an extremely serious allegation to make. It has been documented that this abuse is taking place (shocking with electric batons, attacking the genitalia of females and males too), so it is not too far from the realm of possibility that the photos are genuine. It could be tricky to raise this issue in a completely non-controversial way–like by gently sharing your thoughts about it, or contacting directly the people responsible for publicising the case, and engaging in a correspondence with them about the veracity of the photographs. (I see you have written, I suppose I’d recommend doing it again, with capital letters in the subject, complaining of a lack of response, and that you’re going to publicise this badly if they don’t respond–everyone is busy, sometimes people need a bit an electric jolt, no pun intended) I think it is irresponsible to publicly declare that they are fake, and this other guy is a doctor (though a practitioner), I imagine in cases it may be rather difficult to know immediately, from a photograph like that.

    If you weigh up the probabilities, I think it’s much more likely that the CCP has actually done this than Falun Gong practitioners have made it up (by the way, I practice Falun Gong and fabricating evidence like this would demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of what Falun Gong is and what it teaches). I would understand doubts about it, but also urge some humility, and that making a diagnosis in such a serious case, from a few photos, could be a little incautious. Anyway, in the end I would mainly say you should do what you think if correct, hopefully I’m just providing different perspectives. And this bobby fletcher person has used your post to do the opposite of what you seemed to intend–to get at the truth:

    opyright 2007 Western Standard
    All Rights Reserved
    Western Standard (Alberta)
    April 9, 2007 Monday
    Final Edition
    SECTION: NEWS; Pg. 24
    LENGTH: 699 words
    HEADLINE: Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting, China’s sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign
    BYLINE: Kevin Steel, Western Standard
    BODY:
    He posts his messages everywhere under several different names on Internet blogs and discussion groups. He writes letters to the editor anywhere and sends e-mails to anyone–anyone who might take seriously shocking evidence that the Chinese government “harvests” and sells live organs from political prisoners. His main message is that the Falun Gong–the group which first brought evidence of live organ harvesting to light–and the Epoch Times newspaper that broke that story are spreading propaganda against China’s Communist government. And he’s not even Chinese. He is Charles Liu, a 40-year-old Taiwanese-born technology consultant who lives in Issaquah, Wash., and does business in China.
    Liu has been so active and so pro-Beijing in his writings that some Falun Gong supporters–in particular Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer–have accused him of being an agent for the Chinese government, waging a disinformation campaign against them, trying to confuse people, and deliberately wasting everyone’s time.
    It’s a charge that upsets Liu, who dismisses it as “a bunch of kooky friends making unfounded accusations. It’s just a bunch of blog BS.” As for why he devotes so much energy to attacking the Falun Gong and the organ harvesting allegations, he says, “My position is that I simply don’t agree with their brand of politics, because I observed their politics turning from anti-Communist party, to anti-China, . . . and recently it’s morphed into this anti-Chinese hysteria and that’s going to be hurting people,” he says. As an Asian-American, he says he decided to speak up.
    He doesn’t really explain, when asked, why he started a blog last year called “The Myth of Tiananmen Square Massacre” under the name of Bobby Fletcher (one of his online aliases, which he also uses to comment on the Western Standard’s online blog). On that blog, he pushes the minimal 250 casualty figure that the Chinese government has always maintained died that night in 1989 (more reliable estimates put the figure at at least ten times that).
    Liu’s actions mirror disinformation campaigns waged by the Chinese government in the past. Typically, these include the deliberate spreading of false or misleading facts to sow confusion or doubt among the conflicting accounts. The classic example is the Tiananmen Square massacre; the Chinese government has maintained that no one died in the square itself, that there was only pushing and shoving on the streets around the square, resulting in a few military casualties. Overseas, the CCP relies on its United Front Work department, part of the Chinese intelligence service, to propagate its message. During the Cold War, the Soviets employed many overseas flunkies through their Disinformation Department.
    Former Canadian MP David Kilgour, who co-authored a report on China’s macabre organ harvesting industry, has received many propaganda e-mails from Liu. For instance, Liu has written repeatedly that a U.S. congressional committee looked into the organ harvesting allegations and found nothing. “[David] Matas and I gave evidence to that subcommittee and got support from both the Republican chairman and the Democratic vice-chair,” says Kilgour. “I just came to the conclusion he was trying to waste my time, and I have other things to do.”
    Winnipeg-based human rights lawyer, and Kilgour’s co-author, David Matas, really doesn’t know what to make of Liu. “I don’t know who he is, but what he does is spend a lot of time replicating nonsense to defend the Chinese government,” Matas says.
    The only concern Matas has is that Liu seems to know who he and Kilgour met with in the United States to discuss their report. Matas discovered Liu had sent e-mails to politicians–and their staff–prior to the meetings. “The only people who would have that information would potentially be the Chinese government. I can’t imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those people,” Matas says. “We’re not super-secretive, but you can’t find information on the Internet or in any public place about who we’re meeting with, where and when.” He himself has received at least 10 e-mails from Liu, all of which he’s ignored. Maybe Matas is onto something with that approach.

  22. Matt,
    I appreciate your concerns. I have clearly said what I think about the Chinese Government. I have underlined visibly, I think, that I am sympathetic to any group that stands up to a dictatorship. It is the dictatorship that is evil.
    However, the fight against evil cannot be over in a day or an year. It is a long term affair involving the evolution of one’s philosophies and applying them to one’s political struggle, strategising, etc.
    I have, in my post, clearly given my impression, along with those of other international experts, who ALL seem to think at least some of the pictures are fake.
    Obviously, a history and physical exam completes a diagnosis, but we could clearly say in those instances what those pictures were NOT, and the breast cancer case was a sitter for any surgeon. It is NOT about electrical torture. Period.
    This does NOT mean that there are no tortures, no organ harvesting, etc. I again stress that I am referring to those pictures in the mentioned sites, and I caution the Falun Dafa that putting up fabricated pictures will harm their cause.
    I have written the post with responsibility. You could take me up on every word I have written on it, including these comments.
    Thanks.

  23. Rambodoc, the spy accusation against me is a complete fabrication.

    Matter of fact I have documented two other cases where Falun Gong newspaper Epoch Times reporter Jana Shear has attacked other bloggers who disagree with them:

    http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com/2007/04/epoch-times-reporters-gone-wild.html

    Of course they have nothing to say about the facts presented, so they resort to personal attack.

    And who is Matt Robertson? He is also a reporter from Epoch Times:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=Matt+Robertson+Epoch+Times

  24. Liu, who cares who I am?

    Anyway, sorry not replying so long Rambodoc. I just had one thought afterwards, but forgot to mention until now. Just take this for what’s it’s worth: I understand that you can say that the case in question looks like advanced breast cancer, but can you say it does not look like torture from electric batons? I think this is a pretty key question. Maybe they look very similar. If one hadn’t seen a breast after torture with electric batons before (I imagine this kind of thing wouldn’t be too common outside of communist dungeons), just trying to be super-logical, one couldn’t categorically conclude that what they were seeing was not, in fact, torture by electric batons. I’m sure you grasp the logic.

    You may still disagree. I definitely would not call you bad for that. I think it’s good to go against the grain, strike out, and think independently–that’s crucial. And it is not like you are saying this with cynical or negative motivations. I feel that the consequences of these speculations/thoughts/statements can be seized by wrong hands (e.g., Liu’s utter misappropriation of your post, putting it all over the net, basically to discredit Falun Gong, throw into question the whole persecution, the innocence of Falun Gong itself–basically a nasty agenda to cover up human rights abuses for the CCP) – but I would not say that you are to blame, particularly if acting sincerely in the first instance. Generally, I believe that one should do what one understands is correct, so in that sense it is a gesture of integrity, especially if you condemn the persecution otherwise.

    That’s pretty much what I think in the end. Liu, I’m not interested in making personal attacks. I don’t know who’s calling Rambodoc or you a spy. But speaking of which, you might as well make yourself aware of Chen Yonglin’s case. The spying issue is prevalent, obvious, and well-documented. Here are a couple of articles you (collective) may wish to follow up. I think these are well-written and interesting anyway. In particular, they demonstrate very clearly and on a simple level—and these people aren’t Falun Gong practitioners, obviously—the right and wrong of this whole affair, along with important insights into the details:

    Hard power, soft targets: http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/hard-power-soft-targets/2007/11/10/1194329562764.html

    Chen Yonglin: My Story http://en.epochtimes.com/news/5-8-31/31793.html

    (by the way, I could be anyone. I could have just gone to an Epoch Times website and grabbed any name I wanted and posted with it.)

  25. Dear all,

    Thank you for your caring about Chinese people. To help you understand the true story, you’re encourage to get yourself familiar with “How To Detect Bias In News Media” http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=121

    For your convenience, here are the main points:
    Who are the sources?
    Is there a lack of diversity?
    From whose point of view is the news reported?
    Are there double standards?
    Do stereotypes skew coverage?
    What are the unchallenged assumptions?
    Is the language loaded?
    Is there a lack of context?
    Do the headlines and stories match?
    Are stories on important issues featured prominently?

  26. Hi,

    I understand that the information that is obtained regarding the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners is based largely on eyewitness testimony within China, and whatever documentation can be safely obtained. (see http://www.faluninfo.net) These may include, but are not limited to: family members, friends, co-workers, neighbors, fellow cellmates and prisoners, (who may or may not be practitioners themselves), as well as fellow practitioners; and even the occasional security or medical personnel who are willing to talk. As you might imagine, such efforts to gather and verify information can be very dangerous to the people who are willing to help. Every effort is made to verify all information about every individual case that is published on various Falun Gong websites. After all, dossiers have been created on all those who are participating in these crimes against humanity. When the Chinese Communist regime falls, groups such as WOIPFG will be ready to participate in the inevitable trials that will follow such an event. There is no fabrication of any persecution story; although the CCP makes every effort to suppress all information about its crimes – family members are often denied access to the bodies of their loved ones. Cremation is undertaken quickly to hide any evidence of crimes. So, any gaps that are discerned by “persecution watchers” such as yourselves, can be attributed to the CCP’s own efforts to cover its crimes through its liberal use of lies, deception and manipulation of its state run propaganda. And very few attorneys are willing to represent Falun Gong practitioners when they are illegally arrested and sentenced in secret trials – because they are strongly discouraged by the regime from doing so. Hence, China’s foremost human rights attorney, Gao Zhisheng (who is a Christian), has brought great suffering upon himself and his family on behalf of Falun Gong. They live under house arrest, having been persecuted for the past 2 years since Lawyer Gao wrote 3 open letters to President Hu Jintao, denouncing the Falun Gong persecution as bad for China. I hope that answers some of your questions. If you have additional questions regarding procedures, please contact http://www.faluninfo.net directly with your concerns. Thanks!

  27. Well, your point is taken, but to say that there is absolutely no fabrication from the Falun Dafa’s side is being a little biased.

  28. mahendrap

    You’re smart to check additional resources for the story. However, the Wikipedia entry about Falun Gong appeared “is guarded by a bunch of FG devotees who undo all attempts to introduce a more balanced view into the text” http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2008/03/wikipedians_check_this_out.php. Remember anybody can change it. When dealing with controversial issues, Wikipedia may not be the reliable source. You want to check out professional web sites that are experienced dealing with such issues. Look for the pros and cons sections. If something appears too good, then it is “TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE”. Trust your instinct.

    Thank you for your attention.

  29. Ask the question why?

    I have been commenting on another blog for some time now about some of these same issues. It seems that Charles Liu alias Bobby Fletcher , Kungfupanda and other cohorts Wendy, Specul8er, Wahaha, all work together non stop fulltime to discredit Falun Gong.

    One commenter had this to say to me “• BMY Says:
    July 23rd, 2008 at 11:21 am
    #256 “I ‘m pretty sure your Children have more decency, intelligence and humanity than most of people on this planet because I can see how intelligent their mum is.
    Without you telling me, I can tell Bobby Fletcher , Charles Liu ,wahaha,specul8r are all ccp agents and they have group meetings every day to talk about how to discredit you and your orgnization. I suspect wukailong is also a Ccp collaborator even he claims to be from somewhere in Europe.
    I very much admire how brave you are , you are fighting Ccp collaborators wherever they go. Keep up your good work”
    http://blog.foolsmountain.com/2008/05/22/some-rabid-falun-gong-followers-show-their-ugly-side-in-flushing-ny/#comments

    SO thats one person that didnot evenhave to be told that these spies were working for CCP. its obvious.They have even formed a writing circle /clique and spend their time dissecting Falun Gong news material and their comments on blogs for ridicule while even discrediting top men of substance and good reputation- David Kilgour and David Matas.

    David Kilgour has directly answered all of Charles Lui’s alias Bobby Fletcher’s lies and slanders of their evidence. see next comment

  30. Before you read the truth about all of this . Ask yourself why these Chinese propagandists are so committed to doing the CCP’s dirty work?
    Also attached to this rather long comment are testimonials from Govt Officials just from Canada alone on the essential and true nature of Falun Gong.

    Below are points responding to Liu’s allegations:

    1. Charles Liu claimed: “– US State Department’s undercover investigation found Falun Gong’s Sujiatun/Auschwitz allegation not credible. [1]”

    Our response:
    1.1 There is no ‘undercover investigation’ as we know of. The US state Department sent the US consular officers attend the show tour of the Sujiatun hospital escorted by the hospital authorities, weeks after the witness testimony about the organ harvesting was made public.

    1.2 The witness said that her husband was conducting organ harvesting operations for two years ending in October 2003, more than two and a half years before the US State Department consular officials visited the hospital. What the officials saw in April 2006 tells us nothing about what was going on in 2002 and 2003 at that hospital.

    1.3 Matas and Kilgour were well aware of the US state department ‘findings’, ie. they did not see/find anything. That proves nothing. Kilgour and Matas made their own conclusion based on the 33 kinds of evidence and all of them are verifiable.

    1.4 The US state department, since the Kilgour/Matas report came out, did not comment on the Kilgour/Matas report and has certainly not expressed any doubt about it.

    2. Charles Liu claimed: – - “A US Congressional brief critical of China questioned the veracity of Falun Gong’s claim of genocide and credibility of Kilgour/Matas report. [2]”

    Our response:
    2.1 This reference [2] does not exist. We were aware that there was an anonymous blog (no author name, no identification of the owner, no contact of any kind) which questioned the Kilgour/Matas report, but we believe nobody could rely on it as a credible source and the blog has been deleted some time ago. It no longer exists. It can not be used as a reference at all.
    2.2 On the contrary, a US Congressional hearing, Falun Gong: Organ Harvesting and China’s Ongoing War on Human Rights , was held on September 27 2006 at the Subcommittee on the Oversight and Investigation of the Committee on International Relations. Please find the whole hearing transcript at: http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/archives/oihear.htm or
    http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/archives/109/30146.pdf
    Hon. David Kilgour and David Matas have presented to various Congress/Parliament hearings in different countries, including European Parliament.
    2.3 Following the Kilgour/Matas investigation report, the only studies or investigations which have looked at the matter are those of Dr. Kirk Allison of the University of Minnesota and Dr. Tom Treasure, a UK transplant surgeon, writing in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine. Both have come to the same conclusion as Kilgour and Matas, ie, that this practice is happening.
    Please note Kirk Allision’s testimony at a US Congressional hearing:
    http://organharvestinvestigation.net/events/allison-092906-to-us-congress.pdf
    Tom Treasure:
    https://www.dafoh.org/Article_by_Dr.php
    2.4 Worth mentioning is a Belgian Senator Patrik Vankrunkelsven, who made phone call to two hospitals in China last fall in an effort to investigate organ harvesting.
    He called hospitals in Beijing in mid-November and presented himself as a patient in need of a kidney transplant. He says he was invited to come for the operation and was told that the waiting time would be only a few weeks.
    The hospital staff told the senator that the price of a kidney would be 50,000 Euros and one of the hospitals also offered to register him under a Chinese name and address.
    The senator presented his findings at a seminar in Brussels (December 2006) sponsored by the Belgian Transplant Association. Vankrunkelsven also proposed passing legislation to ban all forms of “organ transplant tourism” to countries where the transplants are performed in violation of fundamental ethical principles.

  31. 3. Charles Liu’s claim: “Independent investigation by long time Chinese dissident Harry Wu found Falun Gong’s witness unverifiable.”

    Our response:
    3.1 David Kilgour interviewed Harry Wu during their investigation on the organ harvesting allegation and was well aware of Wu’s stance before they made the final conclusion. Kilgour/Matas made a response to Hurry Wu’s claims in appendix 16 of their revised report. http://organharvestinvestigation.net/report0701/report20070131.htm#_Toc158023109

    3.2 Falun Dafa Informatin Centre also made a statement on Harry Wu’s conduct on the organ harvesting issue. Please see: http://faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=9452

    4. Charles Wu’s claim: “The hospital Falun Gong accused is partly owned by a Malaysian health care company….”

    Our response:
    4.1 In Charles Liu’s reference, there is such a paragraph:
    “In spite of which, a Malaysian company (Country Heights Health Sanctuary) has recently (year 2004) invested in Liaoning Thrombus Medical Treatment Center,Shenyang China…..”
    That indicates that the Malaysians involvement started in 2004.
    However, the witness said that her husband involved the organ harvesting from late 2001 to October 2003. What happened in 2004 and after is not relevant.
    4.2 The witness said that very few people in the hospital knew about it while the organ harvesting was going on in the hospital. She herself worked in the hospital and her husband had been doing operations in it for two years, but she did not know it until her husband became abnormal and could not hold his terrible secret any longer.
    4.3 Those who had been involved in the organ harvesting are unlikely to inform the Malaysian authority about their killings. If they could conceal it from most of the Chinese employees for years, could they not hide it from foreigners.
    4.4 In addition, Kilgour and Matas’s conclusion was not based on witness testimony in Sujiatun, but upon evidence collected across China, including phone admissions from doctors and other personnel in more than ten provinces.

  32. 5. Charles Liu’s claim: “The gory photo admitted as evidence by Mr. Kilgour is not evidence of vivisection…..”

    Our response:
    The issue was well addressed in the Kilgour/Matas revised report as follows:
    http://organharvestinvestigation.net/
    “In the first version of our report, appendix twelve had a photo of a person with stitches after his body was cut open to remove organs. One comment we received back is that the stitches the photos show are consistent with an autopsy.
    “We observe that organs may indeed be removed for autopsies in order to determine the cause of death. A corpse which has been autopsied may well have stitches similar to those shown in the photo. Outside of China, except for organ donors, that is likely the reason why organs would be removed from a corpse. Similarly, outside of China, when people are blood tested, typically, the test is done for their own health. However, the suggestion that Falun Gong practitioners who are tortured to the point of death are blood tested for their health or that practitioners who are tortured to death are autopsied to determine the cause of death belies the torture experience.
    “The corpse whose photo we reproduced was that of Wang Bin. Beatings caused the artery in Mr. Wang’s neck and major blood vessels to break. As a result, his tonsils were injured, his lymph nodes were crushed, and several bones were fractured. He had cigarette burns on the backs of his hands and inside his nostrils. There were bruises all over his body. Even though he was already close to death, he was tortured again at night. He finally lost consciousness. On the night of October 4, 2000, Mr. Wang died from his injuries.
    “The purpose of an autopsy report is to determine the cause of death when the cause is otherwise unknown. But in the case of Wang Bin, the cause of death was known before his organs were removed. The suggestion that Wang bin would be autopsied to determine the cause of death after he was tortured to death is not plausible. There was no indication that the family of Wang Bin was asked for consent before the organs of the victim were removed nor provided an autopsy report afterwards. The suggestion of an autopsy is not a tenable explanation for the stitches on Wang Bin’s body. “

  33. Jana,

    I know China is a huge third world country. Anything could happen, including human organ crime business, which is hard to eradicate because of huge profit. However I just don’t understand why you believe “Jiang Zhemin and the military are telling it’s people to take out organs while people are alive and then sell for profit…. and then take the money”.

  34. Jana,

    The CCP that you want fight are not here. They are actually at http://www.workers.org/2008/us/falun_gong_0616/index.html who dares to quote Xinhua’s news! Go shut it down!

  35. Jana,

    Tell your Falun Gong disciples stop preaching the innocent children about your unfounded super natural power! See the image in this blog.
    Children are not as sophisticated are adult like you and can easily get hurt.

  36. Falun Gong is good, because it aims at the cultivation of mind, body and spirit. It aims at the cultivation of one’s character based on the principles of Truthfulness, Compassion and Tolerance. I understand that many people out there think that Falun Gong is bad. There are so many lies in the world today. I am a Falun Gong practitioner in Australia and in my opinion, many photos taken of physically abused Falun Gong practitioners are all true. Skeptics would tell you that they were fabricated, of course. There are a multitude of views out there. I’m just putting out mine. These photos of physically abused Falun Gong practitioners are solemn – they are to urgently raise awareness of the terrifying human rights abuse still happening in China today and is definitely not to deceive people. The CCP (CHinese Communist Party) has, of course, censored many truthful information about this spiritual practice and spread countless lies about this practice. Who will you believe? Amidst truth and falsehood, can you discern the truth? The only way is to read a genuine text that came from Falun Gong, that is, the teachings of Falun Gong. This is just my view of course, and everything is for you to decide.

  37. Please visit my blog if you would like more information regarding the persecution of Falun Gong in China.
    To those who do not want to believe that the persecution is happening: it is happening.
    To those who do not want to believe that Falun Gong is good: Falun Gong is good. Truthfulness, Compassion, Tolerance is good!

  38. Falun Gong propagandists are being very active here. Please note that Falun Gong’s teachings discriminate against the disabled, the homosexual and those who are from mixed racial backgrounds. They also teach that medical science is evil. They qualify as a cult and I understand why people will voluntarily work to expose their lies.

  39. Those who want the truth should read the original texts of Falun Gong to make up your mind, not listen to some blog comment. visit falundafa.org for more information.

  40. To Lena. What you said is not true. Falun Gong’s teachings do not discriminate against the disabled, nor homosexuals, nor those from mixed racial backgrounds. Anyone can learn Falun Gong. Falun Gong is a meditation practice with 5 sets of gentle exercises and teachings to improve one’s heart.

    Falun Gong also never said that medical science is evil. I believe Lena is either trying to mislead people or taking things out of context and misunderstanding Falun Gong’s teachings. To say such horrid things about an innocent practice is being irresponsible to oneself and others who are seeking the truth behind these matters. I am a Falun Dafa practitioner. I am a uni student and I have work commitments. Why am I willing to spend my time to clarify the truth of the situation to others? Why would I spend time for this? I stand for truth, compassion and tolerance, the principles taught in Falun Dafa. So why would I waste so much of my time to lie to you or everyone? I would not waste so much time to lie. I am telling you the truth.

    Falun Dafa is not after money, nor fame nor power. It is not a cult. It is a practice that truly aims at improving a person’s heart, and that is what it has been able to achieve for those who truly embody the teachings of Falun Gong, which are based on the principles of Truthfulness, Compassion, Forbearance.

    Be responsible to yourself and truly find the truth behind this circumstance.

    visit faluninfo.net, clearwisdom.net or falundafa.org for more information. Cheers.

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